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THE STORY BEHIND JESUS IN BEIJING Edited for length and clarity Q: Well, I have a question. I heard back in the States that even though the Chinese government is a problem, an obstacle in blocking the smooth coming of Christianity, another big problem is the emergence of different cults that, you know, claim that they are Christian cults. And just practicing things that are very different from what we believe in and what we do, and that's what can get the government very nervous, like Falungong and stuff. So can you please comment on that? A: Yes, that's a good question. The question is, 'What about the existence of cults which claim to be Christian – and we would certainly not assume they were on the basis of what they teach – and is that an obstacle to Christianity in China?' And the answer is, Yes, it is. It is a very serious obstacle. Many of you know about a very dangerous cult called Lightening from the East. And in April 2002, 34 leaders of the China Gospel Fellowship, which is a large house church network, were kidnapped by Lightening from the East operatives and held for up to two months. The interesting thing is, they were released because a house church leader from that particular group went to Beijing and went to the, not the National Ministry of (State) Security, but the Beijing Municipality (State) Security headquarters and said, 'Listen, you and we are in the same page here. We are both against cults. You have in the past called us a cult.' And they said, 'No, no, we realize you are not a cult,' which was the first admission of this. 'Can we both cooperate on putting an end to these kidnappings?' And at the Beijing Municipality Public Security Bureau, they said, 'We know who you are, we have a dossier on you about yea big, but we will work with you.' So I would regard that as a very encouraging sign that there is a growing sophistication in the perception of what a cult is. Unfortunately, there is still regulations that are being implemented by Public Security Bureau departments in various provinces defining as a cult things that you and I would say are entirely normative Christianity, but that is largely a question of education. Yes? Q: Do you have a handle on the issues of church management in that area, because it seems to me to be singularly the largest issue of the growth of the church in China? A: You are absolutely right. Church management and church administration is a very important issue as churches grow larger and larger in China. People are faced with problems of financial accountability, administration and so on and so forth. All I can say is, I know that foreign experts in this area, not the Chinese themselves but experts that were foreigners, have come into China and have spoken to various house church networks about some of the ways of improving the quality of administration work. But it is one of the problems related to the tenuous position of house churches on the national level. As long as they cannot have large conferences which will not be disrupted by police, as long as they are not allowed to do that, it is very hard to address these core issues of how to run the church administration. Yes. Q: In the West, we have a lot of para-church organization that have taken up the role of providing opportunities for getting involved in evangelistic outreach and stuff like that. But in China, things tend to stay more within the church, and with movements and being very evangelistic. Do you think that in the future China will move to or need to move to having para-church organizations, or do you think the church will continue to be evangelistic ... and doing outreach all the time? A: It's very hard to predict what will happen in China if you have a larger measure of civic freedom. I would assume there will be para-church organizations just as there are in every country when that begins to happen. I will also assume the evangelistic thrust of house churches will continue in the main, and that the evangelization of China will be one of their main activities. But on the other hand, I assume that, within a few years, we will have a Chinese military chaplaincy organization just as was started in Russia just after the Soviet Union fell. And I think it will become a part of the China military, that having some kind of a spiritual accountability for the ranks and the officers will be a good thing. When that will happen, I don't know. But I'm counting the time ... Q: Dave, I want to thank you for the book. I think it is a phenomenally well-written book. I actually read it in October after you put it out, and I actually didn't want to like the book because my first exposure was a Xeroxed copy of one of the pages on the chapter about foreigners in China. And so I was hoping that it wouldn't be well-written and wouldn't be helpful and that people wouldn't like it and whatnot. Unfortunately, it is a very good (inaudible), it is an excellent book. Phenomenal. Thank you, very well-written, and I want to thank you very much for that. A: Thank you, it is very kind of you. Q: I want to ask you two questions about information you chose to include. One is specifically about Campus Crusade in the chapters on foreigners, and you listed the code words there. And the questions that I have from other people that I don't have the answer to is 'Why would that be included? What benefit or help did that accomplish?' A: It's a good question and I'm happy to address that issue. First of all, the code words used by Campus Crusade are one of the worst-kept secrets in Beijing. If you imagine a Public Security Bureau official sidling up to a foreigner in a cafeteria and hearing all that stuff, the answer is nonsense. The Public Security Bureau knows perfectly well which foreigners are involved in Christian activities. Not all of them, but they know the prominent ones. I thought that was useful to include in the book because I assumed if Campus Crusade had any sense they would change their code words or they wouldn't keep the same old stuff going. If it is important enough to protect what is going on from prying eyes, you do change codes. You don't use the same old thing month after month year after year. And second, for people outside of the Christian community, I wanted to show 'Look, there are folks in China and this is what they are doing and to prove that this is not just hearsay, here is some of the stuff.' Now I realized when I put that in that it would annoy some people and I apologize if you are among the annoyed. But I did not honestly feel that revealing that stuff would have long-term dangerous consequences for Campus Crusade, upon whom I wish every success possible. And I'm sure Campus Crusade had the wisdom very promptly to change the terminology, and believe me that if this comes to a second edition, I'm not going to publish the updated version. Q: The second piece of information in the English teaching component, the first paragraph, is a general explanation of English teaching across the country, and you highlight ELIC in particular. And you use the word 'guise' in the first paragraph. That people come 'under the guise'. A: Yeah, I realize that is a legitimate criticism. After the book was published, I realized that using that terminology was unfair and it wasn't actually even accurate, because that implied that ELIC teachers were using subterfuge and they weren't. They are valid teachers, and I'm a great enthusiast for ELIC, and I would hate to see anything that caused them any problems. That said, the quotation from Ken Wendling is the only quotation he specifically authorized. He said lots of other things I did not put in the book. I don't think I realized 'in the guise' implies that all of these teachers as sort of doing something surreptitious and they shouldn't. But frankly, if you were a Public Security Bureau official and you've been in China for 20 years, you know what ELIC does. You know that some of these teachers in their spare time do conduct Bible studies, and that is not illegal. And you know that the people who are motivated to be teachers of English in China, many of them who work for ELIC and other organization, have (as) their primary motivation sharing Jesus Christ. And the Chinese know that. I realize that. I accept the criticism as being valid and I would not use the term 'in the guise of" if I were writing that again. ... One of the things I loved (about) CK's sermon this morning, one of the things about the body of Christ worldwide, and maybe I'll conclude on this note, is that it is indeed fallible. It is full of flaws and errors and mistakes. But boy, we are the only people out there who are saying 'Here, the Guy upstairs is in charge and we ought to sort of pay attention to what He says and what He does.' And some of us, many of us, may be very inadequate at reflecting the character of Christ in our lives, and I certainly include myself very much on that list. But we have to assume that God's grace is going to make allowances in the fallibility of the church in China, just as he has made allowances in the fallibility of the church everywhere else in the world, and that China will not be exempt from the kind of temptations and challenges that we have encountered in the West, but may in some ways and in some areas, find successful means to overcome that. I certainly hope so. I wish them the profoundest success on Christian maturity of this country. I think I'll stop there, thank you very much. |
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