THE STORY BEHIND JESUS IN BEIJING
— PART II —
David Aikman

Edited for length and clarity
Part I - Part II - Part III

Now, if China becomes a Christianized society, and this of course I'm repeating as the thesis of the book, you have a nation which in maybe 40 years will be the dominant superpower in the world. I think it's unlikely the United States will be able to maintain military dominance, and certainly not economic dominance, for another 40 years. China will emerge. And the question I ask in the book is, and I think the question we should all ask, is 'If China becomes the dominant nation of the 21 st century, or the second half of the 21st century, what kind of China will it be?' And I think that the wish of all of us here is that it be a China with a Christian view of human behavior – which means domestic policy will reflect the needs and concerns of all different people and not those who claim to have a monopoly into the unfolding history. And it means also that in the world at large, the people who rule China will have the view of an obligation greater than to the nation of China but, in fact, to the Almighty, in the wielding of global power, which we hope the United States has. It doesn't always seem to have that, but we aspire to that.

So, I would end on a note – and I will certainly open it up to questions – that the book has, I believe, put the development of Christianity in this country very clearly on the map of determining what is happening in China amongst secular institutions, in the United States, and other parts of the world.

The Europeans are a bit slow in catching up. I say that because I attended a luncheon at the Foreign Correspondents Club here in Beijing last week, and it was the beginning of interest in this whole topic because journalistically it's interesting. But (there is) an almost total inability to comprehend what was going on because most of the European journalists are not believing Christians.

But there is the beginning of interest in Europe, (and) certainly within the United States, that the nature of Christianity in China is going to be seen as a component of analyzing China in a global setting. And in that respect I suppose I'm a little bit grateful, because as I said earlier, I wrote the book not primarily for a Christian audience.

And by the way, let me just say that some people have accused me of wanting to be sensational for the purposes of earning money. This book is not a best seller. I haven't received a penny in royalties. The advance for the book was very modest, in fact not enough to live on. I had to go and beg some benign philanthropic organization to give me the money as a sort of charitable grant in order to finish it. I have not made money on this kind of book. I mean, it would be nice to be an author to live on the basis of royalties. So whatever is in the book that you find striking, or dramatic, or challenging, (it) is not there because its presence in the book I hoped would lead to more people buying the book. That was not a motive and certainly hasn't proved to be a factor in the sales of the book.

My hope is that people will understand China better, Christians will understand China better. There's a lot of historical background in the book that I hope fills in the gaps of people's knowledge of the country. I hope it will force the regime to come to terms with what is going on under their noses and eventually to take a realistic attitude which is this: Christianity is the best and most beneficial belief system for the promotion of economic growth in any society. The whole story of the development of capitalism in the West is the story of the Protestant ethnic. Even if you're Catholic, (you) would have to acknowledge that.

Christianity is also the best basis for non-violent political change in any government. Christians on the whole, they may (not) give the impression sometimes, but on the whole they don't shoot each other. I know it happens sometimes, but basically Christians are willing to live with differences much more competently then other people. So I say to Chinese leaders of the Communist Party, officials I sometimes talk to when they visit the United States, 'You know, you don't realize sitting under your noses is a belief system that, if you allow it freedom, will prevent your being hanged from lampposts when the government changes. Christians are not going to demand that you be hanged, drawn, and quartered for the crimes of the Cultural Revolution or the Great Leap Forward or the Anti-Rightist Movement. They are going to forgive you. Think about that.' In fact, sometimes I repeat a quote that was made to the Pope by Fidel Castro. Maybe this is apocryphal, but I don't think so. When the Pope visited Cuba, he had a private chat with Fidel, and he told some friends at a retreat in Castel Gandolfo, which is the papal summer retreat outside Rome, after he'd come back from Cuba, people asked him, 'What did Fidel say to you, Holy Father?' And the Pope replied, 'Castro said that in Cuba the reason that he was willing to allow me to come in was because he wanted Cuba to have a soft landing.' He wanted Cuba to have a soft landing, not a violent overthrow (of) the Communists by anti-Cuban, anti-Castro rebels, but a soft landing, a gentle transition, which, as we see, happened in Eastern Europe, remarkably, to end Communism. Of course, we know that the authorities here believe they can ward off that, that they can prevent happening in China what happened in Eastern Europe. But I think that is a vain aspiration, mercifully for us all.

I think we're going to see Christianity continue to grow in this country. Some of you are in some ways observers of this close-hand, I say no more. And it will be good for China, it will be good for Christianity, and I hope in the end it will be good for the book publishing business.

So, who wants to throw the first turnip?

Q: No turnips. You took the wind out of my sails for Jesus in Beijing , so I have no questions to ask you about that book. But the Faith of George W. Bush , there is something that I have a question about. I don't know, I have the book, but forgive me I haven't read it yet.

A: That's alright. It serves its purpose in keeping your window open.

Q: I'd like to find out if you can shed any light on this society, Skull and Bones, that has, you know, come out with Bush's membership and others.

A: And John Kerry, who was also a member. This question is a little off China, but in fairness, you asked it, I will answer it. The question is related to my book A Man of Faith: The Spiritual Journey of George W. Bush.

What about this Skull and Bones society at Yale, of which Bush was a member when he was an undergraduate at Yale, and also John Kerry was a member when he was an undergraduate at Yale two years earlier? The Skull and Bones is a secret society of Yale seniors in which membership is for life, and is secret in the sense that the members are not allowed to divulge what happens. In fact, the secret has been kept very well. Nobody has penetrated the initiation procedure or has really spilled the beans as to what goes on at Skull and Bones meetings. But in point of fact, if you look at all the sources concerned, you find two things about Bush.

First of all, Bush, this president, has never gone back to Skull and Bones since he left Yale. His father has gone back on two or three occasions. Bush has singularly not kept in touch with Skull and Bones associates from that time, so it's not as though the membership has been a feature in his adult life.

Second, I'm sure they have some hocus-pocus initiation ceremony. They probably stroke a donkey's head; there are stories that people have to reveal their sexual histories while lying naked in a coffin. Whether that's true or not, I don't know.

What we can say is that Bush's friendships of today were friendships primarily developed – not in all cases, of course, the current ambassador to China was a fraternity club member at Yale when Bush was at Yale – but most of his strong friendships are friendships since he became a committed Christian believer, which was a process that took place between 1984 and 1986, when he was between 38 and 40 years old.

I am satisfied – I can't prove it but from the point of view of writing the book, I am satisfied – that Bush, in his adult years, has paid no attention to the Skull and Bones friendships when he was a Yale senior and that they comprised no element in the way that he looks at the world. And I think that's particularly true because he became a believer in Jesus Christ in his adult years, which is very significant. That really superseded any kind of loyalties that he might have had as a late teenager.

Yes, sir.

Q: I thank you. Your comments were excellent, just like your book, very interesting. But one thing I found really intriguing (that) you just passed on, (which) was that you see the United States in 40 years really declining in global power of position generally. But since the end of the Cold War, the U.S. has gone from superpower to hyper-power, as the French say. What are the bases of your reports?

A: Well, of course the collapse of the Soviet Union led to the United States as the dominant global military power. And the economic growth in the 1990s, the development of the e-based economy and so forth led to the further development of the United States influence on, first of all on global politics because of the military dominance, and secondly on the global economic system.

However, what needs to be faced is, first of all, historical generality. No nation in history has ever held onto power for more than a few decades at most. If you go back to the British Empire and look at the period of the maximum hold on power by the British Empire, it is really from about 1890 to about 1922. After that, Britain began to decline with increasing rapidity in power and influence around the world, and its place was largely taken by the United States.

If you look at the Spanish Empire. Very brief. Maybe we can say from the beginning of the 16 th century to about 1500. But by a century later, because the Spanish Armada was defeated in 1588, the Dutch were emerging as traders in the East Indies route. The Spanish galleon trade to Manila was increasingly harassed by British and Dutch privateers. The Spanish empire began to go into rapid decline.

In fact, many people say the Spanish Empire declined because they expelled the Jews, and any nation or empire that is inhospitable with Jews faces serious historical judgment. But that's another issue.

But I would say that even if the decline of the United States proportionally is not fast, some kind of evidence of this is going to be inevitable as China begins to fill the gap in higher and higher technology areas. Now, China's not invulnerable. I mean, China could have an economic implosion on the way out. But I don't think it would be an implosion for decades, I think it would be a short-lived one. So I'm just speaking on the basis of sort of historical lessons, not anything I'm forecasting

Yes?

Q: In Jesus in Beijing , page 204 ...

A: Page 204 in Jesus of Beijing.

Q: David, you have written here about Eric Watts. You've written here about Eric Watts and the BJ, back to...

A: Back to Jerusalem ...

Q: Right, anyway, I worked out there, lived there longer than you, David, in China and I just... You (may) be aware most of ...aware of how tight that area of China is. And the persecution there, our very young in the Lord... people have gone through and lost their faith, and the next lot gets saved and they get grabbed and they lose their faith. There's been so much trouble; we're in the fourth lot of people coming to the Lord and now this. In January and February of this year, Eric Watts was e-mailing a few of us and asking us to work with him on this. It was the same Eric Watts, I guess, on 204. I'm just interested why you would expose this situation.

A: Eric Watts? Because they wanted to be exposed. Because the Back to Jerusalem Movement, the people involved in it, wanted this in the book. And if that were not the case, you'd have to ask, Why have they produced their own book called Back to Jerusalem, which is available as a paperback, that draws attention to what they are doing? Why would uncles active in this movement appear on Capitol Hill, as they did in February, talking about the book. Why would they appear on Christian television, both in Europe and the United States? This is very much a movement whose leaders want publicity.

They never said to me, 'We don't want you to write about this.' In fact, it was an interesting case of largely being requested to do the story and report on it. And also that's true of the uncles involved, they wanted the story out.

But I must tell you, an interesting footnote to the story on Back to Jerusalem. Somebody, a friend in China, sent me by e-mail an interview in a Chinese magazine with Bishop Ding. As some of you know, Bishop Ding is a sort of a counter-hero of this book. But he's a prominent official and, you know, when he speaks, people listen. And he had been interviewed on the topic Back to Jerusalem. Now, you say, 'Why would he be interviewed, what's he got to say about it?' The answer is, He's got nothing to say about Back to Jerusalem. There's a famous song by Carly Simon back in the United States, called 'You're So Vain, I'll Bet You Think This Song is About You.' Well, there is a Sister Ding, female, who visited Jerusalem as part of the getting acquainted with Back to Jerusalem visit. And I quote her in the book saying she came back to Jerusalem and was greatly encouraged by what she found in Jerusalem. (But) poor old Bishop Ding thought we were writing about him. And he wrote in this article that a friend of mine in Beijing sent me that he had never been interviewed by David Aikman about Back to Jerusalem, which was correct, of course, and he was absolutely dissociating himself from the remarks attributed to Ding in the book. Well, of course, Sister Ding and Bishop Ding are two different people, and anybody who read the book with a modicum of caution would have known that.

Q: So, you're saying that Eric Watt was happy for his name to be in there?

A: Yes, he told me at the time.

Q: Given the historical reasons and the long-running evidence for paranoia among officials in China, it seems like it'd be beneficial try to do things that would reduce that paranoia. If I were currently an official in China and I heard someone give two statements. On the one hand, 'Jesus is the best protection against tyranny' and on the other hand 'Jesus is the best protection against me hanging when the government changes', what's to prevent me from paying more attention to the first and trying to make sure the government doesn't change. What would you do to reduce that paranoia?

A: Oh, what would you do to reduce the paranoia, well, I think every opportunity you have to speak to a Chinese of influence in the government or universities you say, Look at the history. In fact, I had an opportunity a couple of days ago at a bookstore event in Haidian district. Somebody was saying, 'You know, what about Communism? Communism claims to be true and Christianity claims to be true. You know, who's to say which is right?' I said, 'True enough, who is to say? But if you look at the history of Communism and you compare it with the history of Christianity, ask yourself this question. Which system has produced more prosperity and less oppression over an extended period of time?' And when I asked him that question he got very quiet.

I think if you can get house churches to think about these questions seriously, they will be much more mature in taking advantage of the opportunity without becoming politically atavistic in their approach to being a part of the solution to Chinese problems. I think his influence is growing, as far as I know, and it's good.

Yes, sir.

Q: You mentioned increased pressure on the house churches since the publishing of the book. Has there been increased pressure on some organizations since the publishing of the book?

A: Foreign organizations?

Q: Foreign organizations.

A: I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I've had a few complaints from people saying 'Well, you know, you revealed all these stories about what foreigners are doing.' Of course I didn't reveal all these stories. I had some anecdotes illustrating what being a foreigner in China and a Christian can be like. I don't know whether there is increased pressure.

What I do know is that, as a result of the United States' implementation at government level of very strict admission procedures for foreigners entering the United States, finger printing, photographing of all foreigners visiting the United States, that led to the cancellation of six month multiple entry visas, which you could have gotten in Hong Kong up to the month of February. So the cancellation of visas which were often used by missionaries, and were used, I have to say, by journalists, people who write books, was a result not of what this book revealed but of a reaction by the Chinese government to what the United States was doing.

Yes sir.